The argument that all girlfags are fetishists make no more sense than saying that all homosexuals are fetishists. Here’s why:
I posted Janet Hardy’s rebuttal to girlfag bashers:
Re: “These people [girlfags] are fetishizing gay male sexuality.”
[Janet:] Well, duh. All sexual fantasy is inherently fetishistic (unless you know someone who fantasizes about whole people, including their intellect, their personality, their spirituality, their favorite foods, their grooming habits, their favorite TV shows and their pets). Unless our behavior is in some way unacceptable, STFU.
[Complete post here!]
Three Dollar Wine posted this response:
No. One thousand times no. NO If you are attracted to a human being because of their sexuality then you are attracted to the stereotype of that sexuality. Not all gay men and women are even slightly the same. This is no different than fetishizing trans people and PoC which invalidates us as human beings. You are making our entire selves about one characteristic that you are basing off of stereotypes.
If you are “a gay man trapped in a woman’s body” or a “lesbian trapped in a man’s body” you are either fetishizing people and it’s fucked up or you’re trans and maybe you should ID as trans rather than girlf*g or guyd*ke.
Also, I’ve never heard those statements used by people who were not saying them to be “cute” or “funny” to hide their fetish.
Sexuality, what gets you off, is not inherently fetishistic. It is inherently an attraction, but I see no difference in this and that bullshit “jungle fever” shit. It’s not okay.
Like I said, if you truly feel like your sex and gender do not match, and you are truly a gay man or woman or non-binary person, I can fucking dig it. And I support the shit out of you and your journeys. But And this is a big but if you are not trans and you are only or mostly attracted to homosexual people who are not attracted to you because you are not a lesbian or gay male, then you are fetishizing. You are no different than the people who only like a specific race.
Serano on fetishes
Dear Three Dollar Wine,
I would strongly recommend that you read trans activists Julia Serano’s recent article on how the fetish argument is used to invalidate the partners of trans people.
She makes a very interesting observation on using fetishes to invalidate people, which is also relevant here:
“Way back in the past, I used to assume that people who were attracted to trans people had some kind of a ‘fetish.’ But then a trans friend challenged me on this. She asked me why we call men who are attracted to trans women (the vast majority of whom also are attracted to women more generally) 'fetishists,’ yet men who limit their dating pool to *just* non-trans women somehow manage to avoid the 'fetish’ label? Isn’t the latter group more restrictive and particular in their desires? Aren’t they the ones who really have a 'fetish?’ Her question stumped me. I thought about it for days, but I couldn’t come up with a reasonable rebuttal.”
The point here is that if you are using someones fetishistic preferences to define them, you must do so for all people, because all men and women are attracted to people, features or objects in ways that can be interpreted as fetishistic.
This was Janet Hardy’s point as well, I believe.
We are all fetishists, and yet so much more
The girlfag case is very similar to the one presented by Serano. Girlfags are not the only ones who thrive in the company of gay men. Many gay men do so too, and not only because they are looking for sex. They may have interests and ideas in common. They like being together. And yes, they may share a culture. Does that make them fetishists?
I would argue that the fact that a man goes to a gay bar does not allow us to reduce his his love life to a fetish. This applies even if the club makes use of all the stereotypical gay paraphernalia and has drag queens on stage. And the fact that gay men fetishize the male body (which they most certainly do), does not allow us to reduce their identity to fetishists.
Heterosexual cis people also find comfort in each others’ company.They look for sex among other straight people, and while doing so, they make use of mannerisms and symbols that express that they belong to one of the many hetero tribes of the world.
They may get turned on by bulging biceps, low neck lines, feminine long hair, tight t-shirts, a witty disposition, brute strength. You name it, and someone will probably be trying to provide it.
Does that mean that they are all fetishists? In some ways they are. But it would be mad to reduce their their sense of self to those sexual turn-ons.
Fetish as something abnormal
Now, you might say that this is not what you mean by a fetish. You are, rather, defining a fetish as an anomaly, something abnormal.
But doing so puts you in the same category as people like Edmund Bergler and Ray Blanchard, so-called “experts” who have used terms like “fetish”, “perversion” and “paraphilia” to invalidate homosexual and transsexual people for over more than a century.
In other words: Perverts are people who do things you do not like, for whatever reason. These “experts” feel threatened by homosexuals and trans women, and want to erase them. You feel threatened by girlfags.
It doesn’t sound so good if you put it that way, now, does it?
Most gay men are not threatened by girlfags
When I ask my gay male friends about girlfags, none of them react like you do. All of them have heterosexual female friends (many of which they call “fag hags”, with no offense intended). The fact that some of these women – the girlfags – may feel sexually attracted to them, doesn’t bother them at all. They appreciate the fact that they are desired.
Maybe it is the fact that they enjoy their own sexual kinks that makes them more tolerant. Or maybe they know more of the history of homophobia, and recognize their own confusion in the eyes of the girlfags. Or maybe it is the fact that they are able to distinguish between superficial sexual attraction and love. They love their girlfag friends. They just do not want to have sex with them. And since they are good friends, both parties see beyond the stereotypes.
Maybe you do not know any girlfags, and this is why you need to divide them into the sterile boxes of “fetishists” or “real trans men”. That barrier is only in your head, I can assure you. The real world is much more complex.
The girlfag stereotype
I see that some FTM truscum have developed this image of the girlfag as they horny young teenage blonde, avidly reading yaoi comics and watching Torchwood, knowing no real gay men. (Now, there is another stereotype for you! Janet Hardy is young at heart, but she is no teenager, and she knows a lot of gay men!)
It is true that most yaoi and slash fiction does not reflect the real lives of gay men. Most girlfags know that. This is fantasy, entertainment, erotica, porn. It is not meant to be social realism. Some of the element of yaoi and slash are indeed cliches with fetishistic overtones.
Still, gay men and lesbians read porn, too, and little of it reflects the real lives of real people. In my opinion we should not be allowed to reduce any of these people to fetishists.
Separatist fear of contamination
Since my non-transgender gay friends do not feel threatened by the existence of girlfags, and so many FTM trans men do, I am starting to suspect that we are facing the traditional trans-separatist fear of contamination here.
Maybe some of the FTM trans men insist on sorting girlfags into the clear and distinct categories of real transsexuals and fetishists, because they fear that they will be labelled fetishists themselves if the girlfags are allowed to roam freely.
I have seen the same on the MTF side. Crossdressers are labelled as fetishist by the powers to be, and the MTF trans separatists internalize this transphobia, trying to force the unwanted ones back into the closet. The fact is that these separatist trans women do not want to be trans at all. They want to be “normal” (whatever that is) and the stereotype of “the ugly bloke in a dress” threatens that normalcy. Or so they believe.
This sickens me, not only because there is no clear divide between dysphoric and non-dysphoric, but also because some (although not all) of the girlfags and MTF crossdreamers who identify as cis are gender dysphoric. They just don’t know it yet.
I know of gay men and lesbian women who lived for years trying to live up to the hetero ideal, suffering tremendously in the process. Take a look at Daniel Rauch’s book Denial for more about gay men’s ability to kill their own true selves.
Daniel tried to interpret his fascination for the attractive male body as a desire to become more masculine. In the same way, the girlfag fascination for yaoi, slash and M/M may be a reflection of some kind of gay male inner self. But if they do not know who they are, you most certainly don’t!
Terms like girlfag, queer, genderqueer, crossdreamer and transgender are flexible terms, encompassing a lot of diversity. That is good, because they give gender variant people room to explore their own identity and their own sexuality. By forcing girfags to choose between cis or trans, homosexual or heterosexual, you are denying them that possibility. Please reconsider!
